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There was such an overwhelming response to my request. Several people asked that I compile a hit of the information I received. I wanted to thank everyone who sent a response. You are fantastic!!! THANKS, Donna Edwards Here is the original message: Does anyone know how to explain what a CIP is? I know it stands for Cataloging in Publishing and it is a division of the Library of Congress. Is this a reliable source to use when cataloging a book recently published? I appreciate any help. Thanks!!! Donna Edwards Media Specialist, Rogers Park Middle School Danbury, CT _____________________________________________________________________ CIP is ussually what's on the catalog card that you would get from a vendor. I would use it as cataloging without reservation although I do add things specific to my school (additional sub. headings or different dewey number) if I think it's neeed. ===== Erica Payne, Library Media Specialist Syosset H.S. _____________________________________________________________________ CIP is a reliable source for cataloging a recently published book, but the information should be checked closely. A book with CIP information means that the book was cataloged before it was actually published. Things change when the book is published normally. The title can change, the date can be different, any number of things can change. It is amazing how much a book can differ from what the publisher tells the Library of Congress it will look like and what the actual book looks like. We use CIP information all the time and then enhance the information to match the actual book. So you can use the information as long as you check it over carefully. Besides the physical description will have to be inputted so that is another reason to check over the information. I hope this helps. Sincerely, Paula E. Riddle Head Cataloger Mackin Library Media Burnsville, MN _____________________________________________________________________Catalogin g in Publication (CIP) is a catalog record prepared by the Library of Congress BEFORE the book is published. The purpose is to have a catalog record IN the book when libraries receive it, to speed up the cataloging process. Not all books are eligible for this program (such as mass market paperbacks, many textbooks, self-published books, teacher's manuals). But CIP does appear in most books that libraries buy that are published in the U.S. It used to look like a little catalog card. Now the publishers sometimes center it or left-justify, so keep that in mind if you are typing cards from the CIP. Here is the background. The program started in 1971. Participating publishers send LC a copy of the galley proofs for the book for LC to use in cataloging. LC does not have the published book in hand. There is pressure at LC to get the CIP done as quickly as possible so publishers can meet their printing dates (2 week turnaround is the hoped-for timing). CIP cataloging at LC must be worked into the workflow for the new books LC processes for its own library. Lots of juvenile books are in the CIP program. Publishers may make changes to the book itself--title page, even the slant and scope of the book--after LC creates the CIP record and sends it to the publisher to print in the book. Publishers may even make changes to the LC cataloging record before they print it in the book (even though they are not supposed to do this). This is why occasionally the CIP does not seem to match the book. CIP is a good starting place for cataloging the book, especially for the most time-consuming part of cataloging, subject headings and classification number. But you DO need to verify all of the information on the CIP record. If the title and statement of responsibility are a little different on the title page of the published book than on its CIP, this means the publisher made changes in the book after LC did the CIP. Use what is on the title page. The edition statement may or may not be on the CIP; perhaps it was not on the galley proofs when LC did the CIP, and the cataloger needs to add it. The publisher's information is not usually on the CIP (since the book was not published when LC did the CIP), so will need to be added. The physical description on the CIP usually says "p. cm." which means the paging and the dimensions were not available at the time LC did the CIP (it wasn't a published book yet) so you need to add the physical description. Notes about bibliography and index may or may not be on the CIP (if not, probably LC did not receive the entire galley proofs but just the preliminary pages). Other types of notes may not be on the CIP, except for the summary for juvenile books (but there have been times due to staff shortages that LC did not do summaries). Notes about variant titles (e.g. on cover or spine) won't be ont he CIP. Subject headings on CIP will be Library of Congress, not Sears. If the subject headings are in brackets, these are juvenile headings (Annotated Card headings) used by the Library of Congress; you can convert these to Sears by checking them in your edition of Sears. The Dewey number should also be checked in your edition of Dewey. Older books may have obsolete Dewey numbers. Occasionally there is a typo in the number. The Library of Congress does not get to correct its CIP printed in the book by the publisher. Any errors resulting because LC did not have the published book in hand will remain on the CIP you find in the book. On older books, old cataloging rules (such as pre-AACR2, when editors and compilers could be main entries) may have been in effect when the CIP was done years ago. Obsolete subject headings and Dewey numbers were correct when the CIP was done but may not be now. So the cataloger may need to update the bibliographic record for current rules, subjects, and class number. LC does correct the CIP MARC records in their online database (accessible to all of us through the Web). Publishers are supposed to send a copy of the published book to LC so that these corrections can be made. Sometimes they never send the published book; but more often they do. In order to see the corrected MARC CIP record for the book, go to the LC catalog at: http://lcweb.loc.gov/ You may even be able to download the MARC record if you have Z39.50. Some folks copy and paste the MARC record into their catalog. This is not illegal. So in answer to your basic question--CIP is pretty reliable most of the time, especially for recently published books. There may be errors resulting because LC does not have the published book in hand at the time the CIP is created. For older books, there may be errors due to obsolete cataloging rules, subject headings, or Dewey numbers which were actually correct when the CIP was done but are no longer. There is occasionally a typo, because in the past the CIP was re-typed two or three times at LC and then again at the publisher's before being printing in the book (now I think they all do copy/paste and this cuts down the chances for typos). Just give the CIP information a quick check, as you would when using cataloging copy done by anyone else. If you have time and Internet access, bring up the MARC record in the LC catalog and see if any corrections have been made. I'm the AASL representative to the CIP Advisory Group for LC. CIP is a mystery to a lot of folks. I'm hoping to write an article for Knowledge Quest to explain CIP. It was a big help to me when I was a school cataloger. We just have to know the background process to understand why some of the CIP information seems to be "wrong," check/verify the CIP data, add missing information and make corrections if needed. It is still better than doing the cataloging totally from scratch! Happy cataloging! --Marilyn _____________________________________________________________________ It is one thing I use. I also use Mainecat, Roaring Lion (NY) and Sunlink for dewey numbers. I have been making fewer subject cards for my paper card catalog. Occasionally there are mistakes with CIP. It is useful also to see where books similar to the one being cataloged are placed in your library. For instance I put over 90% of my chicken soup books under the same number. Bob King Wyoming, IA 52362 _____________________________________________________________________ use it all the time as essentially correct, at least as correct as the records I use from any other source. You always have to watch for minor errors, typos etc, and you have to keep up with your local practices which may differ sometimes. But it is tremendously useful to those of us who don;t have time to do original cataloging! Dorcas Hand, Annunciation Orthodox School, Houston TX _____________________________________________________________________ It is reasonably reliable except use the call number that you already use for books on the same topic. Gail _____________________________________________________________________ When LC gets a book in uncorrected proof or other early format and they do the cataloging there can be changes in what is the final published work. One of my own books was miscataloged in CIP and I used it as an example in cataloging classes I taught. Ususally it will be accurate. However, I believe one needs to examine any cataloging done by anyone else to see if it will really fit into the needs and uses of your own users. As an example, in my high school a book on airplane engines was put into engines because the physics classes had a big unit on engines. It would have been equally correct in aeronautics but not as easily used there. Hilda L. Jay, LMS(Ret.) & Author Collington Cottage 2108 10450 Lottsford Road Bowie, MD 20721 _____________________________________________________________________ The CIP is the form the old printed catalog card would take. I believe the CIP is set up almost exactly to match the old card as far as spacing and lines with the exception of the place of publication, publisher and copyright date line. Most of the time it is accurate, but there are some times when I found the numbers to be way off. The trick is to know your library collection well enough to be able to compare numbers on a book already in the collection with a similar book to be cataloged. Lately, I've gone to the Library of Congress website to check the Dewey number for accuracy. It has a MARC record and is more compatible with online cataloging. There are times however when the site is busy. Carol Carol Savage Library Media Specialist Hawk Ridge Elementary School Charlotte, NC _____________________________________________________________________ CIP is on the back of the title page as you probably already know. For a while I worked in the library at Washington University in St. Louis and if it said that the information was the Library of Congress then the information was used to help catalog. Sometimes I think other information not Library of Congress is present and in that case must be used with more care. In my school library I am not so terribly exacting as Washington University has to be so I bend some rules. Gerri Hirst _____________________________________________________________________ Is it safe to use the CIP for cataloging? Yes and/or no, depending. Depending on how much time you can spend, depending on your own level of cataloging expertise and experience. Depending on how the material will be used in your collection, and how the kids will look for it. I have added and subtracted subject headings, adjusting to curricular topics. I have completely reclassified stuff that has (or seems to have, by my way of thinking) bizarre numbers or headings. Sometimes there's a typo in the classification numbers, or two numerals get reversed. New stuff coming in has been classified using the lastest tools. If you have a collection classified according to older tools, you may want to match the item up with what is until you have a chance to update the whole group. Although the automated catalogs are great at "collating" items from all areas of the collection, browsing is still important (and I teach it as a strategy), so having books that seem to belong together shelved together is a good idea, whenever possible. But the person holding the book doing the CIP may be more taken by an aspect of a book that might not even be important to someone else. And specificity enters into it. I was working on music books this week (somewhere between DDC 19 and DDC 21 some things moved). Do you put a Louis Armstrong biography in jazz? or trumpeters? Miles Davis? Wherever they are, I figure they should be together. This is NOT a science. So, as in may things, you try to strike a balance and do what works for you. Wow--this is long--sorry. Maureen S. Irwin Director of the Library Rye Country Day School Rye, N.Y. _____________________________________________________________________ HI! I teach the Cataloging and Classification class here at the University of Central Florida. Here's what I caution my students about CIP-- *It can have errors because it is produced from galley proofs submitted by publishers to Library of Congress well in advance of the actual publication. The title, subtitle, statement of responsibility can, and do, change. *It is always missing those critical bits of information such as the name of the publisher, the publication date, the physical description (pagination, illustrative matter, dimensions). *It is a pretty reliable source for a summary for children's books. And a pretty reliable source for subject entries, but they should always review them with an eye to their collection. *Their school may use Sears subject headings, not LC as shown in the CIP. *The primary source for cataloging information must always be the title page/verso themselves. There's more, but I think you get the idea. Carol McWilliams _____________________________________________________________________ Donna, sometimes the CIP information comes from galleys, etc. and sometimes, I understand from publisher catalogs. I've found that they are usually pretty reliable with the exception of the bindings. Often not all of the bindings are listed or it will say LB and TR, but the TR is trade paper, not a trade hardcover binding. Some non-fiction titles will not have a dewey listed so if you need to know that for sure, I'd go to LC's online site and check there. Frequently by the time the book is published, LC has actually finished cataloging it. Good luck. Beth Thompson Media Specialist Eastern Elementary Georgetown, KY 40324 _____________________________________________________________________ CIP is helpful as a starting point, but I don't always agree with the classification and sometimes I swear it is flat out wrong. Just remember, the people who have done the cataloging are just people like you and me. I always compare with Dewey. Dr.Dana McDougald, Librarian CSHS Library, A National Award-Winnning Library Cedar Shoals H. S., A National Blue Ribbon School 1300 Cedar Shoals Dr. Athens, Ga. 30605 _____________________________________________________________________As a cataloger who has been lurking on this list considering a career change to school libraries, I can answer this one. Before a book is published, the publisher will send some pages of it to the Library of Congress. Occasionally, the catalogers at LC will get to see page proofs, but more often, all the publisher sends is the title page and table of contents. The CIP (including call number and subject headings!) is derived from this somewhat sketchy information. First of all, make sure it says "Library of Congress Cataloging in Publication." Some publishers do their own CIP, calling it "Publisher's Cataloging in Publication", or just "Cataloging in Publication." While some publishers do a pretty good job, others obviously don't have a clue what "cataloging" is. If it is bona fide LC CIP, double-check the title and the publication dates. Publishers have been known to change the title of the book *after* the CIP is done, and publication is sometimes delayed or pushed up. Subject headings and call numbers are usually pretty reliable, if you (or your users) think like a Library of Congress cataloger. Personally, I'd recommend always looking at the subject headings and consider either 1) adding a few more, or 2) simplifying the ones that are there. And, as Maureen Irwin pointed out, check the call numbers against your collection. Almost all books could be classed into more than one number, and what's right for the Library of Congress may not be the right one for your users and your collection. The Library of Congress considers CIP cataloging preliminary at best, and recatalogs the book when they finally receive it. But using CIP is also likely to be the fastest and cheapest way to get that new book cataloged and on the shelves. As always, it's a tradeoff. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Genevieve _____________________________________________________________________ Donna, I use it quite frequently to help with cataloging, but it really shouldn't be taken as "gospel." One of the first things I did when doing my "internship" as a library student was to help the H.S. librarian catalog books. One of the first books had a terrible misprint in the CIP. It was a book on the rainforest and the number assigned was for medicine. You can't always trust them. Also, folks will tell you that the assigned cataloging may not fit your needs, and you may want to group certain books under a slightly different number. We, for example, have a biography section, labeled "B," so we don't put any of those books under the 920s. It's really an art, not a science, and I think the people who depend on the CIP the most are those without a very strong background in cataloging. My class was a rush-course during the summer that we completed in 13 days, so I don't feel very strong in this area, but I do consult the DDC if a number looks questionable or if the rest of my books on the subject are elsewhere in the collection. Forgive my analogy, but it's a crap shoot sometimes. To answer your question, it's usually reliable, but you often need to tweak what they give you to make access for your patrons easier. Jody +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Jody Gerlock, Librarian, Upper School ______________________________________________________________________ My understanding is that the publisher usually supplies the information. Is it reliable, well.. most of the time. However, I was cataloging a book yesterday and our supplier of MACR data, who uses CIP, did not catch that the title chad changed. There was a book a number of years ago with a Subject heading Afro-Americans--Fiction which had no Black character. I asked the publisher who said the author changed his mind about the main character. So be thankful for CIP but do examine records. Raymond W. Barber Director of Libraries The William Penn Charter School 300 West School House Lane Philadelphia, PA 19144 _____________________________________________________________________ From: DMONTGOM@norfacad.pvt.k12.va.us (Danielle Montgomery) To: SUNIRAM@AOL.COM (Donna Edwards) This is how it was explained to me: The CIP was created to help with cataloging consistency across the board (public libraries, school libraries, university libraries, etc.) Basically, the Library of Congress has cataloged the book and put its "catalog card" in the book for you to see. As far as the reliability goes, you can't always use their Dewey numbers and subject headings because they may not correspond with those that exist in your catalog. I use the Dewey numbers as a starting point -- just to see how LOC classified the book. Many times I end up using the same Dewey number (and shortening it if it's a number like 325.0948573). But if I go into my catalog and all of my books on airplanes are in 629.13 and LOC has classified an airplane book in the 300's, I go with my number. Ditto with the subject headings. LOC uses Library of Congress subject headings most of the time. If you use Sears headings, they won't always match. But I still like to see what LOC uses. Then I'll go to Sears and use the subject headings that come as close as possible to LC's. After that I add any others that are suitable for my users. You have to remember that these "catalog cards" are created by people just like you and me with different perspectives. If you go by the CIP's alone and don't change the Dewey numbers and subject headings to fit your collection, you'll have books with similar subjects scattered all over the place. I treat MARC records from vendors (Follett, Baker & Taylor, etc.) the same way. I've also "discovered" that you can download MARC records from LOC's online catalog (www.loc.gov). This is a timesaver for things that I have to catalog from scratch. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-= All postings to LM_NET are protected under copyright law. To quit LM_NET (or set-reset NOMAIL or DIGEST), send email to: listserv@listserv.syr.edu In the message write EITHER: 1) SIGNOFF LM_NET 2) SET LM_NET NOMAIL or 3) SET LM_NET DIGEST 4) SET LM_NET MAIL * Please allow for confirmation from Listserv. 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