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Dear LM_NETTERs: I had many responses from people in regard to my Target-->Overdue Fines. I believe that I will dump the fines for next year. How about you? Please read the following: From: "Global SchoolNet Fdn (FrEdMail)" <lmnet-l@ACME.FRED.ORG> Subject: Re: Target-->Overdue fines We have never charged fines in my 20+ years at PHS. My belief is that as the days went by and fines got bigger students would be less and less inclined to bring books back. If someone has an overdue book or magazine he/she cannot check out anything else until that overdue is returned. At a certain point we declare the item lost and charge the student the cost of the item. If they bring it back the charge is wiped out. Actually, most of our students have plenty of money and paying a fine would not hurt them, but you know how people act when faced with "authority". I want to be as little police state as possible. Maybe I'm too soft. I also don't want to handle much money in the library. We have been robbed and since then I have taken pains to let students know we do not have large amounts of money. These are all considerations for our no fines policy. This does not prepare students for the real world since the public library and the local colleges and universities all charge hefty fines. Jane From: Caroline Brannigan ac182@DAYTON.WRIGHT.EDU I was a high school librarian for five years, and we had fines. It was a real pain (especially since we do not have automated circulation.) I would get the book back (which is all I really wanted in the first place), and then I'd have to harass the student and keep some dopey record of his fine for the next 5 months until he finally paid up. The librarian after me discouraged that a little bit by tacking on an automatic 50 cent fee to the regular fine if it was not paid at the same time the book was returned. I'd say, forget it. Just block borrowing privileges (works well enough for me here at the 7-8 building.) From: Bob Hall PHE_ACA_BH@NWOCA.OECN.OHIO.GOV I had the same problems and concerns two years ago. Last year we eliminated fines and found that there was absolutely no difference in return rate or "good will." Seems as if money was no object. I thought if this was the case I might as well accept the "bad will" and put the profits toward new library materials. We reimposed the 5-cent fine this year. From: Shelley Lochhead s_lochhead@mentor.unh.edu Dump the fines and don't look back! From: Deborah Chaney chaney@tenet.edu I've never favored fines. It doesn't seem to succeed in its purpose-to get the materials back on time. It DOES use up staff time, DOES create ill will, and you STILL have overudes. Only excuse to retain is that it is an added source of revenue in ever-strapped budgets. Our high schools collect fines, and have massive overdue problems-this is Irving (TX) schools. From: Kathy Sornsin sornsin@sendit.NoDak.edu I am in a 9-12 school, and have also been charging 5cents per day per book, and I agree it is a real pain! I am going to try no fines next school year, and see what happens. It will be a first in our school! So, how do I do this? Do I check them out for a long er time? Do I wait until they're overdue say for a month, then send around the overdue list? I have been sending an overdue list to the homeroom teachers about every 2 weeks, but typically, I guess, some of the teachers do something about it, and others don't even mention it! How do others do this? From: Kay Maynard cant@darkstar.rsa.lib.il.us I have tried it both ways--no fines and now five cents a day. Either way uses staff time because at some point in time you need to retrieve the wandering books--the dog ate it; it was in the trunk of my car; it burned up in the fire; I just found it xxx, I don't know how it got there, etc. When I arrived at my present position two years ago the fine system was in place. It does not have the desired effect of making students responsible, but I have been able to use the fine money for a variety of items that were truly needed. In addition to the five cents per day we charge replacement cost for lost books, we add a service fee of $2.00 if carried from one school year to the next, we charge 50 cents per period for reserves not returned, etc. From: Sandy Barron sbarron@tenet.edu We charge fines also-10 cents per school day. It is a big time eater and after the first two years we saw no great difference in number of overdues. BUT it was put in place after one of my library aides made the comment "Mrs.B. the kids don't bring the books back because there is no penalty for not doing so". My aide was really frustrated with her peers and thought there should be a penalty for not "following the rules". Overdues are time consuming whatever, but this way we get some monies in the activity fund. Whenever a student pays a fine I try to mention some of the items purchased with the monies--i.e. paperback books, our 55 gallon aquarium, and this year a large 45" TV for the school. BYW after 6 years paying fines, we have little complaint about the policy. There is a $5.00 cap on fines. One glitch==when the fine and the book cost are nearly the same. This happens sometimes on paperbacks. BTW we don't charge cost of book + fine when a book is lost. From: Betty Hamilton bhamilt@tenet.edu I charge fines because "it has always been that way," but I, too, am thinking of changing. We have *much* theft. I'm wondering if students would be more willing to check books out if they won't have fines if they forget to bring the books back on time. I think some just take the books to avoid that fine issue -- just in case. From: Floyd Pentlin fpentlin@hobbs.leesummit.k12.mo.us We do not have fines and have not had for 15 years. Everything I read seems to indicate that fines are not helpful in getting material returned, and, as you have noted, a poor public relations tool. We do have extensive overdues, but then that is because we have a lot of circulation. From: Kathy Geronzin Gooselak@po-1.star.k12.ia.us I stopped charging fines years ago when it seemed to take as much or more time to collect the fine as it did to get the overdue book returned. I can understand the ill will it causes when fines are collected. It seems that both charging fines and not charging fines have advantages and disadvantages. From: Joan Miller KBX_MILLER@MEC.OHIO.GOV I too suffered the frustration of chasing students for 15 cents, but I got smart. We send overdue notices each week, but do not charge fines until the end of the semester. We hold reports at the end of the nine weeks (mid-semester). At the end of the semester we print on the overdue notices that anything overdue after a certain date will be charged $1.00 per item. This is regardless of how long overdue -- one day or 22 days. They have plenty of warning and we really don't get much opposition. We don't mind wasting our time chasing a dollar, but those little bitty fines didn't solve anything. We save lots of time and frustration and the kids are so pleased when they come in and don't owe a fine. We tell them we know their assignments are due at a certain time and we really don't care if they keep the materials until they are finished if they will just bring them in when they are finished. If another student needs the material we contact the one who has it out and ask for a return. That's our solution! Hope it will work for you. From: Sandy Doggett sdoggett@umd5.umd.edu I have never charged fines in school libraries. I do charge if the book is lost or damaged. I encourage them to renew their books but they seldom do. I don't see any reason to charge fines. From: Danee Wilson dwilson@umd5.umd.edu I charge overdue fines only on reference books. I let reference go out overnight only. If they don't get the book back before the beginning of 1st period, I charge 50 cents a day, beginning one minute after 1st period begins. Every time I check out a reference book, I remind the student of the rule, emphasize the fine and tell them the only way not to get a fine is to have a valid signed excuse. I get the reference back quickly because the fine adds up quickly. Of course, that was the reason for making it 50 cents a day. From: Lynn Ondercin londerci@nyx.cs.du.edu We do charge a nickel day, also, at our 9-12 high school, but over the years it has proved to the the only incentive for getting books back at all! We have tried to look like the "good guys" buy waiving fine, only charging partial fines, asking students to do errands or work for us in the library to "work off" their fines. They think we are really giving them a break when we say say "just bring it back tomorrow and I'll only charge you half" and other motivational bribes. Many students end up enjoying helping us in the library and with help so hard to get these days, it turns out to be beneficial for all (while making unlikely new friends!!) An amnesty day was a disaster! The rest of the year, kids just said they were going to wait and get out of their fine when we had another amnesty day!! From: Jerry Blakestyn KWV_BLANKEST@MEC.OHIO.GOV I understand your frustration but I do not think that doing away with fines will make your task any easier. You will still have to retrieve overdue books and the students will have even less incentive to get them in on time than before. At least with fines, you make some money for new books, supplies, bookmarkers, etc. for your trouble. We charge 10 cents a day. I believe that many students do bring back books sooner than they would have without the fine. We have the luxury of an automated system that keeps track of everything for us...it was much more work by hand. From: Mary Stallings mstallin@pen.k12.va.us We at Poquoson HIgh School abolished fines this year in an attempt to eliminate unnecessary hassles and waste of time for our clerical staff. Plus, we were converting to a new computer system. So far, haven't noticed any problems with an increase in number of overdue books. Sure has been great not having to deal with money and recording the name of each student and the amount paid in our accounts book. From: Pam Spencer pspencer@pen.k12.va.us In the 20+ years I've been a librarian, I've never charged fines. I do hate the time it all takes and you're correct about the ill-will. The few cents you receive are not worth the hassle. Good luck making a decision. From: Frankie Dilling fdilling@tenet.edu You can conduct a keyword search of the LM_NET archives. There are currently 32 messages posted there regarding fines. From: Rachel Carson aixoise@netcom.com At both of the high schools that I serve, we charge fines. The fine .10/day up to a max of 3.00 per book. Kids seem to understand and rarely try to argue their way out of it. The fines are "real world" treatment--no different that what they'd get at the P.L. (except cheaper); and the kids know that the fines they pay buy them more library books. From: Cindy Menkhus lmenkhus@services.dese.state.mo.us I have worked in this school district for 14 years and was delighted to discover that the district did not allow students to be charged fines. I worked in two middle schools, one with fines and the other without. I found that it seemed to make no difference in the length of time students kept books out--they return them when they are ready or think of it. The school that charged fines had a huge overdue/fine list because middle school and junior high students seldom have money when they turn in their books. We got the book back (our primary goal) but then had to track the kids down for the money. I have been at this high school for five years and we do not charge overdue fines and we won't go back to the other way, the good PR we get and the fact that we emphasis to students that we just want the materials returned in good condition helps to maintain good relations with students. From: Betsy Stine BSTINE@RCNVMS.RCN.MASS.EDU We abandoned overdue fines about 6 years ago here in Danvers. I think sometimes kids don't bring books back because they think they have to pay the fine on the spot and don't have the money, so the fines just accumulate. I believe it's much less threatening for the students if there are no fines--I have no statistical evidence to back this up, however. We have pretty good fortune getting books back--by just asking kids when we see them (we keep computer printout of overdues on the counter) and we can "badger" them without threat of fines. From: Karel A. Smith ksmith@services.dese.state.mo.us For those same reasons we stopped charging fines 20 years ago. We still have a lot of overdues, but charging fines certainly wasn't the answer. In fact right now, we'd just like to have the books checked out! From: Robert Hiebert jwilliam@cln.etc.bc.ca I'm the librarian of an 8 to 12 school of 550 in Golden, BC, Canada. I took over this job last September and inherited a (virtually) no-fine situation. I hated it! Some students seemed to have no sense of responsibility regarding the books they borrowed. I instituted a 10 cent per day (that's Canadian; about 5 cents American . . ha!ha!) fine. The computer system allows me to generate overdue and unpaid fine notices pretty simply (it takes me about an hour and a half a week of no-brainer activity). Teachers hand these to their students Friday afternoon. Now it is June and I'm sending out about 120 notices each week. Some of the students have been receiving the same notice for months! This sounds like failure but it isn't. Most of the notices are for unpaid fines; in other words I'm getting the books back. Our grads HAVE to pay their fines to get on the grad list. The rest of the students will have their debt deducted from their textbook deposit. The money I collect will help to buy some of the stuff that has been stolen. (Do you have much trouble with stealing?) The staff has been very supportive. Most of them have about half a dozen notices to hand out once a week. Some of them really get on the cases of the repeat offenders! The students attitude toward the library has improved. Whether this will translate into more responsible behaviour next year remains to be seen, but I'm optimistic. (If you like, contact me next June to find out!) From: Marilyn Shontz SHONTZ@iris.uncg.edu I WAS IN YOUR POSITION ONCE. ABOLISHED FINES AND NEVER LIVED TO REGRET IT. ONLY IF YOU HAVE OVERNIGHT MATERIALS YOU NEED BACK SHOULD YOU CHARGE--THEN MAKE IT 25 CENTS AN HOUR - OR SOMETHING ELSE MOTIVATIONAL! From: Debbie Athanases athanasd@belnet.bellevue.k12.wa.us When I came to my position 8 years ago, the librarians collected fines. I decided that it used more staff time than the amount collected warranted, plus I needed to improve the library's public relations. I eliminated all fines except for replacing lost materials and I have never regretted it. There are secondary schools in our district which do collect fines, but they have larger staffs. I think we do too much fussy nit-picking work, when we could be helping kids learn! From: Amanda Byrd I990672@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU We charge .05/day and have no major problems. We explain to the students that we are helping them learn cause and effect--responsibility. When they get to college the fine won't be a mere nickle a day. Also, we have only one due date per week (Wednesdays), except for temporaries and reserves. This seems to cut down on confusion. If it's Wednesday, it must be due day..., etc. We use find money to buy things we would not be able to get with our tight budget situation (paperbacks students would like to have, etc.) From: Chris Dewar cdewar@minet.gov.mb.ca We are not allowed to collect fines from students. Therefore we charge only for lost materials and refund the money if a paid- for item is found and returned to the library. We do restricts borrowing privileges of students with overdue materials until such a time as they see fit to renew or to return their stuff. From: Vicki M Sherouse sherouse@tenet.edu Abolish fines. I did and really I lose fewer books and have much less hassle. From: Julie Walker jawalker@tenet.edu Do it! From: Linda Ramsey lramsey@bigcat.missouri.edu We do not charge fines, partly because it is too time-consuming. Also, our students normally check books out for the quarter book report, so they tend to need them all quarter. Our philosophy is that the book does no one any good, just sitting on the shelf. However, we also have a policy that if someone else requests a book, then there is a two week limit. Our school is small and our students are pretty cooperative, so this works for us. I try to order multiple copies of the really popular titles (especially short classics, for book reports :-} ). The time I would normally spend on overdues, is now spent trying to get kids to read the popular titles quickly, so they can be shared with others. We do withhold report cards if students have overdues, and for repeat offenders, I cancel their checkout privileges, but this is rare. At the end of each quarter I post a list of students with overdues (student names, but NOT book titles). I think some students love to have their names posted, and some like NOT getting their report cards. Some students always have overdues. Is this a power thing or a search for attention, or just irresponsibility? Sometimes I post a list of students who HAVE returned all of their materials on-time, with a big thank you note! I get lots of smiles from these kids when they realize that they are getting some positive attention for doing what is expected of them! From: J. Perkins jperkins@po-1.star.k12.ia.us Your posting is very timely considering the fiasco at the end of the school with trying to get all items returned to the MC! We do not charge a fine for overdue books. We also (at one point) had over 200 books overdue! Our population is 900 students. So far we have limited a few MC privileges for those with overdue materials--but it's always a battle. We are loath to start collecting fines, as anytime you deal with money it's a hassle. Yet we need to find an effective way to get materials returned in a timely manner. As I mentioned, withholding privileges has worked to some degree with students, but some of our worst offenders are staff members. If I told them they weren't allowed to use the computer because of an overdue book, it would be unpopular to say the least! From: Kari Inglis KBW_INGLIS@MEC.OHIO.GOV We have always charged fines (5 cents/day for books and mags, and 25 cents a day for AV, reference, etc.). Now that we are automated this takes NO time at all. I am in a Catholic school which allows me to use the money as I wish. If I could not keep the money, I would not bother. It is amazing that kids who would argue with us over fines charged under our manual system are very accepting of what the computer tells them. Also, we have learned never to have a grace day. First, they don't work, and second, you then get arguments on the day after. We do keep fines in the system over the summer and add a "carrying charge" for the nuisance. But - this is what keeps us in pens, pencils, kleenex, scissors, etc. From: David Loertscher davidl@csn.org The research I have seen indicates that a no-fines policy results in the same percentage of return. The task is to create a sense of community and good will. From: Sue Shaver sshaver@panesu.esu14.k12.ne.us I am a librarian in a K-12 system in Western Nebraska. Our elementary library imposes no fines - the principal wants it that way and in the high school I too charge a $.05 a day fine with a maximum fine of $2.50. The librarian before me did not follow through with the fine nor did I the first year I was librarian for our school system. When I did begin to impose a fine, you should have heard the comments (but not directly to me. Many students felt I was using it to buy an afternoon pop. :-) We discussed this issue in my library classes and I have had mixed emotions about it. Yes, it is extremely time consuming to collect all the fines that are due, but it also helps prod the students to get books turned in. A comment from an area public librarian helped me decide. She said you have to have something over them in high school to make them responsible for the materials they check out. The key word is responsibility. So many students will not assume it and they need to learn it somewhere. And so every grading period I set forth to collect as much as I can and the money then is used to replace stolen materials. I personally feel the fine is a necessary evil of the job. :-) From: Rita Kaikow K12OCKZR@vaxc.hofstra.edu For many years I was a diehard regarding this issue. I flatly refused to discontinue charging overdue fines. That was until I realized the futility of it. As you said, it caused us more grief than success. We were convinced that it actually contributed to books walking out the door without proper authorization (If you get my meaning :-)). Our purpose is to provide information for our "clients" and hopefully instill in them the "love" of discovery and the sense of cooperation that comes from borrowing and returning on "time". Have we licked the problem of overdue materials? That's a definite no. What we have licked is the tug of war that results when books are returned and fines are not paid. Some students now actually are apologetic when they return late books. Of course, those are usually the ones whose books are only a day or two late. Now what do we do with the other holdouts? This year we have opted to go the formal route with our Deans. Books long overdue result in discipline referrals and in-house detention. Are all of the books returned? No - Well there's always next time :-(. I'd like to know what others have done regarding those on the faculty who are just as bad, if not worse than, as some of the students re: overdues. From: Lois Feldman ab189@lafn.org I have to rely on fine money for my basic budget--it doubles the amount of money I receive from the school's account. The overdue notices that are printed out from our computerized circulation system, and before we had it, the notices that we typed, include the price of the book. Students who bring the books back are always pleasantly surprised at the litle amount of money charged compared to what's printed on the notice they received. Several years ago I went to 10 cents a day. Linda Friel friell@woods.uml.edu