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I just want to thank everyone who took the time to respond. I was overwhelmed by the number of replies. I decided to interfile my reference collection based on what the majority of you said. Thanks again. Some of you asked for a 'hit'. so here it is: We are going to move many of our Ref. stuff to the regular stacks. (However, if they are old and outdated - why not just weed?) I think in 10 years our reference and non-fiction sections are going to look very different. We are in the same place, and next fall will start rethinking the reference section. We have a whole room that it wasted space because of the books anyone rarely uses or checks out, and could be used as active study space (if we had furniture). We are going to start moving sections into the regular collection, and weeding again. We did a huge weed of reference last year, but have come to see what else needs to go with another year's passage. When I was in the HS, with the exception of a few books (most used by certain teachers for projects) our reference section was barely touched. Depending on the situation, those that were used, we allowed students to check out on a restricted time basis. Personal opinion, I would still order reference books, some of them are very informative and interesting, but I think they get more use and serve the population better when they are able to circulate. On the advise of another librarian in my district (props to C. Rancour), I began interfiling my reference books with the regular book about 3 years ago and I LOVE the results. Because the books on like subjects are next to each other, kids see the reference books where they never saw the reference section before! The are still on an overnight only check-out, but (anecdotally) circulation of reference is up. I did keep the World Book, Ency. Americana, Almanacs, Unabridged Dictionaries and Atlases in a small, centrally located reference area, but that's it. If they aren't used as reference - why would they be used in general circulation? I circulate all reference anyway so it isn't an issue for me. It is true that the reference collection isn't used as it was in the 60s, 70s 80s and 90s - my first year as a librarian was 1963). I don't buy any reference anymore - including almanacs, encyclopedias, etc. The students prefer the databases and actually I do so as well. I still have about 800 titles in reference and they are used -- especially those for literary analysis, maps, etc. - but they are used in combination with the databases. I'm not in a high school, but my question would be: how outdated? If they are that bad, just get rid of them. No information would be better than misleading or really old information, especially with the internet available. So yes I would say intermingle the ones that still have some use and ditch the rest. put them all into regular circulation. :) for so many reasons. I can expand on them if you wish. but mainly they will get used more. I marked all of them with green tape, just in case, I ever wanted to pt them back into their own section, but in 5 years I never found a reason why. I believe that you need a strong reference section to teach students what a reference section is for when they attend college. The books are very large and heavy, but more than that are usually much more expensive if lost. One of our roles as media specialists is to prepare students for college. I have been moving reference to circulating for a while now, and just tossing the really outdated stuff. Yes, the reference section has been shrinking. As far as the books being too heavy to check out... What, have you guys been circulating unabridged dictionaries? I agree; pretty lame... if these large books are checked out, how will they hold up to more frequent traffic use? worth rebinding, buying new? how long is your circulation on these items? we have a three week circulation and even then we have MANY overdues. it would not be good if others needed an encyclopedia volume and it was out for many weeks at a time. public libraries have reference areas - students should be aware of such resources, special sections of libraries just my 2 cents or maybe only 1 ½ My reference section has 3 sets of encyclopedias, some dictionaries, thesaurus, and current almanac that I believe should remaind in ref. The rest of it is a compilation of books that should probably be thrown out because of age, and "coffee table" type books that were deemed too unwieldly for students to check out (they were probably also expensive!) I, too, have been toying with the idea of doing exactly what you said but never got around to doing it. I'm retiring this year, but have left that as a "thing to be considered" for the person who comes after me. 2 years ago I had to run a library from a VERY small room for a year and a half. I made up a reference cart with about 30 basic sources. I also had online access to databases and the Grolier encyclopedias. I didn't miss my book reference collection one bit! This year in my new library I weeded my reference section deeply. Like Allan I mainly have the literary resources for specific papers and some specialized encyclopedias and dictionaries. Even so I am pretty much the only person that uses the section. I could definitely see myself recataloging the whole section someday. personally I believe we should have a reference section in every library. If we are preparing our students for lifelong learning - every library I have ever been in public, college, university etc has a reference section. One of the main complaints I hear from college professors is that students have no idea how to do research if it doesn't involve a computer.. Most college research requires printed material as well as online. I do not want my students to walk into a college library and ask what is a reference section. But that is just my opinion We are in the process of substantially weeding our reference collection. We are then going to interfile the rest of the reference collection into the general collection. We're doing this for a few reasons, first, we've been purchasing more and more e-reference which has been more cost effective., secondly, we moving toward the newer philosophy of putting everything on the same topic together. (I'm looking forward to the day when I can interfile my AV into the general collection); thirdly, we are moving our circ. desk to the area where our reference section currently lives, so it is timely for us to do this now. Suzanne - I agree with you! I am gradually filtering all my reference into the General Collection. Most of what is in my small ref collection includes dictionaries, thesaurus, print encyclopedias, etc. First of all, what do your State standards say? If you are accredited by another agency, you will also need to check their standards. If you are NOT required to have a reference section, then you can, indeed, move everything that is useful to the circulating section. I think I'd keep at least a basic REF section of an encyclopedia, an almanac or two, and a couple of dictionaries. Here in Missouri we are moving toward reducing the REF section because so much is available from the databases. We count REF books with nonfiction now, and many of us have actually transferred some of the books to the circulating section. I'm down to seven shelves for REF, and six of those are multi-volume encyclopedia-type works. We're required to maintain one print general encyclopedia that is less than five years old. I've been keeping four sets (I buy one set each year for four years, and the fifth year I spend the money on other REF books). I'm going to cut down to two sets, purchased in alternate years, and let the other two sets go to classrooms. I am asking myself the same questions. There are some books I want that I'd rather not check out, however. But I have not done much adding lately. I've been having the same thoughts, or at least I'm thinking of seriously reducing the size of reference. Mine is quite large and I find myself lending the books out anyway in many cases. I'd still keep the largest of the books as reference, and the ones that would be really expensive to replace, but I'm thinking much of what is in Ref would get more use on the nonfiction shelves. I'm doing away with mine-I haven't bought anything new since 2007 and that was an encyclopedia. I am slowly removing the books in that section to the circulation section or the circular file. They are never used and are just there for decoration and to fill a part of the library which will be redesigned in the next two years. I'm dealing with the same issue. I recently weeded -- rather heavily -- our small, outdated reference section and literally cried over whole sets that had never, ever been used in 15 - 20 years. I do plan to keep a small reference section targeted towards specific units that I know my teachers cover. We always have a few students who work too slowly to finish an assignment on the computer here but don't have one at home, or some who are absent and can't get in to use one of our few computers at a later time (I have 15 computers for a high school population of 1400), and so on.. But I will not build it back up to its pre-database size. Especially since I will have no money to spend on anything next year, and who knows about the next few years after that? Hope my input helps. We recently (within the last month) interfiled our reference section with the general stacks. I was not a huge fan of the idea when the other librarian I work with (the head librarian) wanted to do so, because I thought it was valuable for the students to see the differences among the types of reference books and to have our collection organized the way that public and college libraries are. Her argument was that the reference works would get more use if they were simply interfiled; the students, she said, are barely willing to go to one spot, let alone two, to search for information. Now that we've completed the process, I'm much more on board with the idea. Not only is she right, that it simplifies searching for the students, but the process of moving and interfiling the books allowed us to see titles that could/should be weeded in both the reference and general collections. I, too, am rarely ordering any “reference” materials. As I weed titles from this section, I’m not replacing them. Some titles that would have been placed in that section years ago, I am now placing into regular circulation. With the use of online databases and Google, students avoid that section of the library like the plague. Suzanne McRae Library Media Specialist Soundview Campus, Bronx, NY crlibrary@yahoo.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- Please note: All LM_NET postings are protected by copyright law. You can prevent most e-mail filters from deleting LM_NET postings by adding LM_NET@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU to your e-mail address book. 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