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Here's part 2....... I don't know if this is a satifactory answer, but we had the same problem until be realized that we needed to stop referring to the books with Dewey numbers as the non-fiction section. We now call that section the Dewey Decimal section and explain to students that all materials including fiction and biographies can be given a Dewey Decimal number. However, in order to make it easier for them we put some fiction book and some biographies in special sections. We give fairy tales a Dewey number so they will be together and when the teacher asks them to find a fairy tale they don't have to search though all the fiction books. ****************************************************************************** Ever notice that when something is changed from the original intent there is inevitably something that no longer fits? This is, essentially, the case of the modified Dewey System. Believe it or not, there is no place in the basic philosophy of Dewey for Fiction/NonFiction and the changes we've made by creating a Fiction collection added to it has left a lot of areas - not just Fairy Tales - hard to justify. All material can be identified within the Dewey Numbers. Nonfiction items like, of course, novels can be listed in the literature 800s. As, Grapes of Wrath in 813, the Christmas Carol in 823, etc. Therefore it's not really fair to continue using Fiction/Nonfiction as definitions within the system and its use, as Tracey has indicated, will inevitably lead to questions whose only answer can be that "traditionally" we place certain items in a certain location. It leads also, as another LM_Net member just posted, the problem of where to put essay collection like Chicken Soup for the Soul. A fine example, by the way, is to take a look at the history of the cataloguing of Go Ask Alice (Anon.) which was originally catalogued as non-fiction (in the 610s) and only after the author admitted that the account was fictional was it changed to the Fiction designation. Seem also to recall that the Amityville Horror also did such a change. Now, what we tell the students? I really don't know. I've tried the "Information on this topic can be found in ....." but I still get "But Mrs. Jones told us that all the ones with numbers are true". Maybe someone out there has some suggestions. ****************************************************************************** When I ask my middle-schoolers, "what is non-fiction?," the robotic answer is always "true books." My reply is: Now that you are getting older, you can understand more. Non-fiction books are information books.... and not all information is true. This bombshell statement is met with SILENCE and then I'll get some bewildered/curious looks .... (especially from teachers!) Depending on the situation, I may go on to explain how every book is written from the author's point of view, that knowledge about a topic changes, that mistakes can be made, etc. This can lead nicely into a discussion of the perils of the internet, where there are no publication editors, fact-checkers, etc. And when fiction is being defined, I love it when a perceptive kiddo says, "But some fiction books have true stuff in them..." So then I talk about historical fiction. My point to them is that while we try to categorize books for convenience, the lines can be blurry. Do all of them "get it" right away? No, but some do and the rest have had exposure. (Not sure about the teachers, though.<grin>) ****************************************************************************** We haven't called it the non-fiction section for about 15 years. Your very question is the reason why.... it isn't the non-fiction section. Dewey never intended for his system to be non-fiction only. It was devised so that every book could be included. I can't find out exactly when or where it became "non-fiction". I make a point of making sure the students understand that we pull some fiction and biography and put them in their own sections to make it a little easier to find but they could all fit in the Dewey section. The Dewey section is also labeled DEWEY. If it has a number it is in the Dewey section. The kids don't have any problem with this and I feel it is far more accurate that what we had been doing in the past. ****************************************************************************** The 390's are for folklore and customs from around the world, including holiday celebrations and tales and legends passed down from generation to generation. Dewey intended his system to work for all books, with the 800's being designated for "recently" written literature, whether prose or poetry. Technically all fiction should be placed in the 800's. We shelve it under FIC just for convenience. ****************************************************************************** 398.2 because Folk Tales and Fairy Tales tell us about Society. and that is the Social sciences section of the general classification section. 811 Poetry because if the poety were filed by author's last name like the fiction it would be scattered all over the place and it is easier when poetyr is all together--besides it is in the literature section. Fiction could be put in the literature section too, but that would make for a really big 800 section. Makes sense to the kids. ****************************************************************************** I do not use the term "non-fiction" to describe books arranged by Dewey. During orientation, I tell my students that the two basic sections in the library are "fiction" and "classified." The fiction books are the novels and short stories, arranged alphabetically by the authors' or editors' last names. The rest are classified by the Dewey Decimal system. This includes many books that are not non-fiction such as fairy tales, folktales, legends, myths, poetry, plays, joke books, etc. Novels and short stories could be arranged by Dewey classification numbers too, but like most school and public libraries, ours has a separate section for novels and short stories, referred to as the "fiction" section. Teachers are always surprised when I tell students that it isn't really true that all books that aren't novels or short stories are non-fiction, and that the correct term is "classified." Everyone has had the term "non-fiction" drilled into them for so long, it's hard for them to understand that "non-fiction" is a actually a misnomer when applied to all books arranged by Dewey Decimal number. ****************************************************************************** I always tell my students that Non-fiction books are informational books and arranged by subject. Fiction books are make believe stories that are arranged by author's last name. By stressing the arrangement of the books, I explain that fairy tales, plays, and poetry books are put in the nf section so they can be arranged by the subject of poems, plays or fairy tales rather than the fiction section where they would be spread all over the alphabet depending on the author's name. They seem to understand this explanation...hope this helps. ****************************************************************************** The Dewey classification system classifies all literature - not just nonfiction. In fact, all fiction has some sort of 800 classification. At some point it was pulled out of the numbered collection just because it was so large. It's become accepted practice to refer to the books with call numbers as nonfiction and the books shelved by author as fiction, I do it too, but it's not accurate as your second graders can probably recognize. This is not so articulate an explanation as I the one which was given to me - but I hope it helps. ****************************************************************************** This is an explanation I've heard and that I use. Fiction is a made-up story with a known author. "Non" means "not." Therefore "non-fiction" is anything that is _not_ a made up story with a known author. Folktales therefore are non fiction because there's no known author, riddles and poems are not stories. I tell them that there are a few exceptions. As far as relating this to Dewey, I do explain that technically we could put all of the fiction in the 800s as literature and biographies in either the 900s or in the appropriate subject section, e.g. books on Babe Ruth in with baseball books. ****************************************************************************** I always tell my students that nonfiction books are of two kinds 1. books of information (which may or may not be true), AND 2. stories that are told in a special way (movies, poems, plays, fairy tales, legends nursery rhymes). ****************************************************************************** The fact is that maybe you should think of it as the Dewey section. Not the "non fiction" section. Dewey set it up so the part of the 200s where "mythology fiction" is is really stories tied to religons. That is why all those bible stories are in there with the Greek and Roman gods. The 300s were people talking and thinking about people and what they do. Folklore and fairy tales and tall talls are about people doing things.I am told that these stories belong here because they have been handed down through generations. I haven't yet figured out why Native American,Asian, and Hawaiian stories about their gods are usually found in the 398s instead of the 200s. The 800 are where man writes and it is the classification for fiction. You could put all your fiction in the various clasifications in the 800's nicely separated by type of fiction (poetry, humor, plays,short stories, etc) and country of origin. But I find it easier to have whhat most of us consider fiction in it's one place and I also divide it up by E fiction (which I explain as being simple short stories with lots of pictures that everyone can enjoy), E chapter books which are the easiest chapter books, and FIC fiction for the harder, longer chapter books with few or no pictures and sonetimes smaller print. Hope this helps. I spent 6 years as a shelver and often wondered about the cataloging choices. There seems to be at least two places for everything. .......... this year I foud the video version of Wiesner's "Tuesday" it is very true to the book and is only a few minutes long. I showed it to each of my classes (yup even the grownup 5ths) and taught them a tongue twister "Fifty Flying Frogs Are Fiction". We said it slow, fast faster and fastest. I then offered to give them a Frog stamp on their hand if they could say it to me. I have a rubber frog that leaves a 4 footed footprint stamp(is that really clear). Anyway the kids still come in to say fifty flying frogs are fiction and get their hand, and arm and cheek stamped. If you made it up it is fiction even if it has some true stuff in it. If it isn't fiction then it must be non fiction. ****************************************************************************** Tracey Donaldson, LMS Tioga Hills Elementary School Apalachin, NY bookluv@aol.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-= All postings to LM_NET are protected under copyright law. To quit LM_NET (or set-reset NOMAIL or DIGEST), send email to: listserv@listserv.syr.edu In the message write EITHER: 1) SIGNOFF LM_NET 2) SET LM_NET NOMAIL or 3) SET LM_NET DIGEST 3) SET LM_NET MAIL * Please allow for confirmation from Listserv For LM_NET Help & Archives see: http://ericir.syr.edu/lm_net/ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=