Re: Hit...Cataloging using CIP

[Donna Edwards <SUNIRAM@AOL.COM>]

    There was such an overwhelming response to my request.  Several people
asked that I compile a hit of the information I received.  I wanted to thank
everyone who sent a response.  You are fantastic!!!  THANKS, Donna Edwards

Here is the original message:
Does anyone know how to explain what a CIP is?  I know it stands for
Cataloging in Publishing and it is a division of the Library of Congress.  Is
this a reliable source to use when cataloging a book recently published?  I
appreciate any help. Thanks!!!

Donna Edwards
Media Specialist, Rogers Park Middle School
Danbury, CT

_____________________________________________________________________

CIP is ussually what's on the catalog card that you
would get from a vendor.  I would use it as cataloging
without reservation although I do add things specific
to my school (additional sub. headings or different
dewey number) if I think it's neeed.

=====
Erica Payne, Library Media Specialist
Syosset H.S.
_____________________________________________________________________
CIP is a reliable source for cataloging a recently published book, but the
information should be checked closely.  A book with CIP information means that
the book was cataloged before it was actually published.  Things change when
the
book is published normally.  The title can change, the date can be different,
any
number of things can change.  It is amazing how much a book can differ from
what
the publisher tells the Library of Congress it will look like and what the
actual
book looks like.

We use CIP information all the time and then enhance the information to match
the
actual book.  So you can use the information as long as you check it over
carefully.  Besides the physical description will have to be inputted so that
is
another reason to check over the information.

I hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Paula E. Riddle
Head Cataloger
Mackin Library Media
Burnsville, MN
_____________________________________________________________________Catalogin

g in Publication (CIP) is a catalog record prepared by the Library
of Congress BEFORE the book is published. The purpose is to have a catalog
record IN the book when libraries receive it, to speed up the cataloging
process. Not all books are eligible for this program (such as mass market
paperbacks, many textbooks, self-published books, teacher's manuals). But
CIP does appear in most books that libraries buy that are published in the
U.S. It used to look like a little catalog card. Now the publishers
sometimes center it or left-justify, so keep that in mind if you are typing
cards from the CIP.

Here is the background. The program started in 1971. Participating
publishers send LC a copy of the galley proofs for the book for LC to use
in cataloging. LC does not have the published book in hand. There is
pressure at LC to get the CIP done as quickly as possible so publishers can
meet their printing dates (2 week turnaround is the hoped-for timing). CIP
cataloging at LC must be worked into the workflow for the new books LC
processes for its own library. Lots of juvenile books are in the CIP program.

Publishers may make changes to the book itself--title page, even the slant
and scope of the book--after LC creates the CIP record and sends it to the
publisher to print in the book. Publishers may even make changes to the LC
cataloging record before they print it in the book (even though they are
not supposed to do this). This is why occasionally the CIP does not seem to
match the book.

CIP is a good starting place for cataloging the book, especially for the
most time-consuming part of cataloging, subject headings and classification
number. But you DO need to verify all of the information on the CIP record.

If the title and statement of responsibility are a little different on the
title page  of the published book than on its CIP, this means the publisher
made changes in the book after LC did the CIP. Use what is on the title page.

The edition statement may or may not be on the CIP; perhaps it was not on
the galley proofs when LC did the CIP, and the cataloger needs to add it.

The publisher's information is not usually on the CIP (since the book was
not published when LC did the CIP), so will need to be added.

The physical description on the CIP usually says "p. cm." which means the
paging and the dimensions were not available at the time LC did the CIP (it
wasn't a published book yet) so you need to add the physical description.

Notes about bibliography and index may or may not be on the CIP (if not,
probably LC did not receive the entire galley proofs but just the
preliminary pages). Other types of notes may not be on the CIP, except for
the summary for juvenile books (but there have been times due to staff
shortages that LC did not do summaries). Notes about variant titles (e.g.
on cover or spine) won't be ont he CIP.

Subject headings on CIP will be Library of Congress, not Sears. If the
subject headings are in brackets, these are juvenile headings (Annotated
Card headings) used by the Library of Congress; you can convert these to
Sears by checking them in your edition of Sears. The Dewey number should
also be checked in your edition of Dewey. Older books may have obsolete
Dewey numbers. Occasionally there is a typo in the number.

The Library of Congress does not get to correct its CIP printed in the book
by the publisher. Any errors resulting because LC did not have the
published book in hand will remain on the CIP you find in the book. On
older books, old cataloging rules (such as pre-AACR2, when editors and
compilers could be main entries) may have been in effect when the CIP was
done years ago. Obsolete subject headings and Dewey numbers were correct
when the CIP was done but may not be now. So the cataloger may need to
update the bibliographic record for current rules, subjects, and class number.

LC does correct the CIP MARC records in their online database (accessible
to all of us through the Web). Publishers are supposed to send a copy of
the published book to LC so that these corrections can be made. Sometimes
they never send the published book; but more often they do. In order to see
the corrected MARC CIP record for the book, go to the LC catalog at:
http://lcweb.loc.gov/
You may even be able to download the MARC record if you have Z39.50. Some
folks copy and paste the MARC record into their catalog. This is not illegal.

So in answer to your basic question--CIP is pretty reliable most of the
time, especially for recently published books. There may be errors
resulting because LC does not have the published book in hand at the time
the CIP is created. For older books, there may be errors due to obsolete
cataloging rules, subject headings, or Dewey numbers which were actually
correct when the CIP was done but are no longer. There is occasionally a
typo, because in the past the CIP was re-typed two or three times at LC and
then again at the publisher's before being printing in the book (now I
think they all do copy/paste and this cuts down the chances for typos).

Just give the CIP information a quick check, as you would when using
cataloging copy done by anyone else. If you have time and Internet access,
bring up the MARC record in the LC catalog and see if any corrections have
been made.

I'm the AASL representative to the CIP Advisory Group for LC. CIP is a
mystery to a lot of folks. I'm hoping to write an article for Knowledge
Quest to explain CIP. It was a big help to me when I was a school
cataloger. We just have to know the background process to understand why
some of the CIP information seems to be "wrong," check/verify the CIP data,
add missing information and make corrections if needed. It is still better
than doing the cataloging totally from scratch!

Happy cataloging!

--Marilyn
_____________________________________________________________________
It is one thing I use.  I also use Mainecat, Roaring Lion (NY) and Sunlink
for dewey numbers.  I have been making fewer subject cards for my paper card
catalog.  Occasionally there are mistakes with CIP.   It is useful also to
see where books similar to the one being cataloged are placed in your
library.    For instance I put over 90% of my chicken soup books under the
same number.

Bob King
Wyoming, IA 52362
_____________________________________________________________________
 use it all the time as essentially correct, at least as correct as the
records I use from any other source.  You always have to watch for minor
errors, typos etc, and you have to keep up with your local practices which
may differ sometimes.  But it is tremendously useful to those of us who
don;t have time to do original cataloging!

Dorcas Hand, Annunciation Orthodox School, Houston TX
_____________________________________________________________________
It is reasonably reliable except use the call number that you already use
for books on the same topic.

Gail
_____________________________________________________________________
When LC gets a book in uncorrected proof or other early format and they do
the cataloging there can be changes in what is the final published work.
One of my own books was miscataloged in CIP and I used it as an example in
cataloging classes I taught.   Ususally it will be accurate.  However, I
believe one needs to examine any cataloging done by anyone else to see if
it will really fit into the needs and uses of your own users.  As an
example, in my high school a book on airplane engines was put into engines
because the physics classes had a big unit on engines.  It would have been
equally correct in aeronautics but not as easily used there.

Hilda L. Jay, LMS(Ret.) & Author
Collington Cottage 2108
10450 Lottsford Road
Bowie, MD 20721
_____________________________________________________________________
The CIP is the form the old printed catalog card would take.  I believe the
CIP is set up almost exactly to match the old card as far as spacing and
lines with the exception of the place of publication, publisher and
copyright date line.  Most of the time it is accurate, but there are some
times when I found the numbers to be way off.  The trick is to know your
library collection well enough to be able to compare numbers on a book
already in the collection with a similar book to be cataloged.

Lately, I've gone to the Library of Congress website to check the Dewey
number for accuracy.  It has a MARC record and is more compatible with
online cataloging.  There are times however when the site is busy.

Carol

Carol Savage
Library Media Specialist
Hawk Ridge Elementary School
Charlotte, NC
_____________________________________________________________________
CIP is on the back of the title page as you probably already know. For a
while I worked in the library at Washington University in St. Louis and if it
said that the information was the Library of Congress then the information
was used to help catalog. Sometimes I think other information not Library of
Congress is present and in that case must be used with more care. In my
school library I am not so terribly exacting as Washington University has to
be so I bend some rules. Gerri Hirst
_____________________________________________________________________
Is it safe to use the CIP for cataloging? Yes and/or no,
depending.  Depending on how much time you can spend, depending on your
own level of cataloging expertise and experience.  Depending on how the
material will be used in your collection, and how the kids will look for
it.  I have added and subtracted subject headings, adjusting to curricular
topics.  I have completely reclassified stuff that has (or seems to have,
by my way of thinking) bizarre numbers or headings.  Sometimes there's a
typo in the
classification numbers, or two numerals get reversed.  New stuff coming in
has been classified using the lastest tools.  If you have a collection
classified according to older tools, you may want to match the item up
with what is until you have a chance to update the whole group.  Although
the automated catalogs are great at "collating" items from all areas of
the collection, browsing is still important (and I teach it as a
strategy), so having books that seem to belong together shelved together
is a good
idea, whenever possible.  But the person holding the book doing the CIP
may be more taken by an aspect of a book that might not even be important
to someone else.  And specificity enters into it.  I was working on music
books this week (somewhere between DDC 19 and DDC 21 some things
moved).  Do you put a Louis Armstrong biography in jazz? or
trumpeters? Miles Davis?  Wherever they are, I figure they should be
together.  This is NOT a science.  So, as in may things, you try to strike
a balance and do what works for you.  Wow--this is long--sorry.

Maureen S. Irwin
Director of the Library
Rye Country Day School
Rye, N.Y.
_____________________________________________________________________
HI!
I teach the Cataloging and Classification class here at the University of
Central
Florida. Here's what I caution my students about CIP--

*It can have errors because it is produced from galley proofs submitted by
publishers
to Library of Congress well in advance of the actual publication. The title,
subtitle, statement of responsibility can, and do, change.
*It is always missing those critical bits of information such as the name of
the publisher, the publication date, the physical description (pagination,
illustrative
matter, dimensions).
*It is a pretty reliable source for a summary for children's books. And a
pretty
reliable source for subject entries, but they should always review them with
an eye to their collection.
*Their school may use Sears subject headings, not LC as shown in the CIP.
*The primary source for cataloging information must always be the title
page/verso
themselves.

There's more, but I think you get the idea.

Carol McWilliams
_____________________________________________________________________
Donna, sometimes the CIP information comes from galleys, etc. and sometimes,
I understand from publisher catalogs. I've found that they are usually pretty
reliable with the exception of the bindings. Often not all of the bindings
are listed or it will say LB and TR, but the TR is trade paper, not a trade
hardcover binding. Some non-fiction titles will not have a dewey listed so if
you need to know that for sure, I'd go to LC's online site and check there.
Frequently by the time the book is published, LC has actually finished
cataloging it. Good luck.

Beth Thompson
Media Specialist
Eastern Elementary
Georgetown, KY 40324
_____________________________________________________________________
CIP is helpful as a starting point, but I don't always agree with the
classification and sometimes I swear it is flat out wrong.  Just remember,
the people who have done the cataloging are just people like you and me.
I always compare with Dewey.

Dr.Dana McDougald, Librarian
CSHS Library, A National Award-Winnning Library
Cedar Shoals H. S., A National Blue Ribbon School
1300 Cedar Shoals Dr.
Athens, Ga. 30605
_____________________________________________________________________As a
cataloger who has been lurking on this list considering a career
change to school libraries, I can answer this one.

Before a book is published, the publisher will send some pages of it to
the Library of Congress.  Occasionally, the catalogers at LC will get to
see page proofs, but more often, all the publisher sends is the title
page and table of contents.  The CIP (including call number and subject
headings!) is derived from this somewhat sketchy information.

First of all, make sure it says "Library of Congress Cataloging in
Publication."  Some publishers do their own CIP, calling it "Publisher's
Cataloging in Publication", or just "Cataloging in Publication."  While
some publishers do a pretty good job, others obviously don't have a clue
what "cataloging" is.

If it is bona fide LC CIP, double-check the title and the publication
dates.  Publishers have been known to change the title of the book
*after* the CIP is done, and publication is sometimes delayed or pushed
up.  Subject headings and call numbers are usually pretty reliable, if
you (or your users) think like a Library of Congress cataloger.
Personally, I'd recommend always looking at the subject headings and
consider either 1) adding a few more, or 2) simplifying the ones that
are there.  And, as Maureen Irwin pointed out, check the call numbers
against your collection.  Almost all books could be classed into more
than one number, and what's right for the Library of Congress may not be
the right one for your users and your collection.

The Library of Congress considers CIP cataloging preliminary at best,
and recatalogs the book when they finally receive it.  But using CIP is
also likely to be the fastest and cheapest way to get that new book
cataloged and on the shelves.  As always, it's a tradeoff.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genevieve
_____________________________________________________________________
Donna,
I use it quite frequently to help with cataloging, but it really shouldn't
be taken as "gospel." One of the first things I did when doing my
"internship" as a library student was to help the H.S. librarian catalog
books. One of the first books had a terrible misprint in the CIP. It was a
book on the rainforest and the number assigned was for medicine. You can't
always trust them. Also, folks will tell you  that the assigned cataloging
may not fit your needs, and you may want to group certain books under a
slightly different number. We, for example, have a biography section,
labeled "B," so we don't put any of those books under the 920s. It's
really an art, not a science, and I think the people who depend on the CIP
the most are those without a very strong background in cataloging. My
class was a rush-course during the summer that we completed in 13 days, so
I don't feel very strong in this area, but I do consult the DDC if a
number looks questionable or if the rest of my books on the subject are
elsewhere in the collection. Forgive my analogy, but it's a crap shoot
sometimes. To answer your question, it's usually reliable, but you often
need to tweak what they give you to make access for your patrons easier.
Jody
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jody Gerlock, Librarian, Upper School
______________________________________________________________________
My understanding is that the publisher usually supplies the information.  Is
it reliable, well.. most of the time.  However, I was cataloging a book
yesterday and our supplier of MACR data, who uses CIP, did not catch that the
title chad changed.  There was a book a number of years ago with a Subject
heading Afro-Americans--Fiction which had no Black character.  I asked the
publisher who said the author changed his mind about the main character.  So
be thankful for CIP but do examine records.

Raymond W. Barber
Director of Libraries
The William Penn Charter School
300 West School House Lane
Philadelphia, PA 19144
_____________________________________________________________________
From:   DMONTGOM@norfacad.pvt.k12.va.us (Danielle Montgomery)
To: SUNIRAM@AOL.COM (Donna Edwards)

This is how it was explained to me:
The CIP was created to help with cataloging consistency across the board
(public libraries, school libraries, university libraries, etc.) Basically,
the Library of Congress has cataloged the book and put its "catalog card" in
the book for you to see.

As far as the reliability goes, you can't always use their Dewey numbers and
subject headings because they may not correspond with those that exist in
your catalog. I use the Dewey numbers as a starting point -- just to see how
LOC classified the book. Many times I end up using the same Dewey number
(and shortening it if it's a number like 325.0948573). But if I go into my
catalog and all of my books on airplanes are in 629.13 and LOC has
classified an airplane book in the 300's, I go with my number.

Ditto with the subject headings. LOC uses Library of Congress subject
headings most of the time. If you use Sears headings, they won't always
match. But I still like to see what LOC uses. Then I'll go to Sears and use
the subject headings that come as close as possible to LC's. After that I
add any others that are suitable for my users.

You have to remember that these "catalog cards" are created by people just
like you and me with different perspectives. If you go by the CIP's alone
and don't change the Dewey numbers and subject headings to fit your
collection, you'll have books with similar subjects scattered all over the
place.

I treat MARC records from vendors (Follett, Baker & Taylor, etc.) the same
way.

I've also "discovered" that you can download MARC records from LOC's online
catalog (www.loc.gov). This is a timesaver for things that I have to catalog
from scratch.

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