I feel I need to put in my 2 cents on this topic. However, I have a
disclaimer, in that I am now a community college librarian, but we get
students right out of HS, and we deal with some of the same issues
found on this listserv. (a lot of the students I instruct are taking
developmental courses, meaning they have not tested into college level
courses, although they graduated from HS. Plus research is a weak spot
for almost all the students I come into contact with.)
Personally, I think if a student is just learning to do research, they
need to be directed to sites. They have to be taught how to do
research as well as web evaluation - two very different things. (I
don't believe these topics should be taught together - research first
using hard copies and directed sites, then web evaluation. This
listserv posts on web evaluation websites are great for this purpose.)
I have to agree that not everything on Wikipedia is for the younger
set - even encyclopedias have versions for the younger set, which
takes into account their maturity and reading level.
I believe the conversation about using wikipedia should start in
middle school, when students are doing more self directed research. I
am a fan of wikipedia, but I would not use it as a source. It is great
to find info fast, especially ephemeral or pop culture info. The value
of wikipedia is in the references/citations at the bottom of the
entries. If a site is truly reliable, the creator(s) will have cited
all their sources. (take a look at the star trek or star wars sites -
those creators are dedicated to be sure all info is correct!) In
reality, Wikipedia is nothing more than a secondary source. The
citations take you to the primary source, which is what should be
taught to be cited. I think the same should be true of encyclopedias,
unless there is a reason that the encyclopedia is the ONLY source to
be found on it (which I would find hard to believe) or the assignment
is to find some general info, pre-research, which I would then would
allow wikipedia. Of course, always citing any sources.
My opinion is always to educate versus filter/restrict. When you
educate, students can take that information with them, assisting them
as they go out into the world or go further in their education.
But, this is just my 2 cents...
Theresa
Theresa Stanley
librarian
Pima Community College
1255 N Stone Ave
Tucson AZ 85709
520-206-7267
Online Instructor
PODetc
203 Prospect Ave
Long Beach CA 90803
1-800-408-4935
tstanley@podetc.com
On Feb 2, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Cathy Rettberg wrote:
> These are both interesting viewpoints. I am one of the people who
> tells students to use an encyclopedia (including wikipedia) if
> necessary to find keywords and ideas, and to then research more
> deeply and not cite encyclopedias. Wikipedia can also be a good
> source for authoritative sources, if the page is well footnoted. But
> then we tell the students not to include these sources in their
> bibliographies, as we only want to see their authoritative sources.
> Tom is right - that is ignoring a part of the research process. How
> then (and this is basically for Tom) would you deal with truly non-
> authoritative websites? What if a student goes to a random
> Geocities site and finds accurate information that is supported by
> other, more authoritative sites? Would you include the "bad"
> research sites along with the "good" ones because they were part of
> the process?
>
> For my part I think I will stick to teaching students to only
> include sites that we (the students, teacher and I) have deemed
> reliable. We do a unit on source authority in US History that plays
> into this idea though: students have to create a "good"
> bibliography, using authoritative sources, and a "bad" bibiography,
> using lesser sources. The bibs are on opposite sides of a page; the
> students then exchange papers, determine which side is the less
> authoritative bib, and find better sources for each others' topics.
> The assignment is called "Born to Be Bad." The kids enjoy the
> intellectual challenge - it went over very well this year.
>
> I know there is a need to continually revisit the Wikipedia issue,
> as our view of source authority will continue to change as
> information flows ever more freely. It's so interesting!!!
>
> Cathy
> -----------
> Cathy Rettberg
> Head Librarian, Menlo School
> Atherton, CA
> crettberg@menloschool.org
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 2, 2009, at 9:02 AM, Gustafson, Jean wrote:
>
>> I believe, when a teacher says you cannot cite World Book or
>> Wikipedia type sources, what they really are saying, is DO NOT even
>> go look at them.
>>
>> Jean
>>
>> R. Jean Gustafson
>> Teacher-Librarian
>> Selah Jr. High
>> Selah, WA 98942
>> jeangustafson@selah.k12.wa.us
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: School Library Media & Network Communications
>[mailto:LM_NET@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
>> ] On Behalf Of Thomas Kaun
>> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:55 AM
>> To: LM_NET@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Why NOT Wikapedia
>>
>> Hi, Kristina.
>> I'm not sure why a student or any researcher, using the information
>> they got
>> from Wikipedia would not cite it. This just drives me crazy. If the
>> teacher
>> or professor wants to restrict students use of Wikipedia or ensure
>> that
>> other resources are used to verify the information found there that
>> doesn't
>> absolve the researcher's obligation to cite the source no matter how
>> inaccurate, in error, or whatever, that source is. The issue is not
>> citation--it's use--and that has to be determined by the teacher.
>> Some
>> teachers also don't want kids to use general encyclopedias and they
>> say the
>> same thing, "Don't cite the World Book or Britannica." Once again
>> that
>> doesn't make sense to me. If you are using it as a source then you
>> should be
>> citing it.
>> I know this is long answer to a short question but it just pushes
>> my buttons
>> when we and other teachers don't seem to understand the purpose of
>> citation
>> and are giving their students the wrong message about what and why
>> to cite.
>> Tom Kaun
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Kris Fallon
>> <librarychickie@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Looking for some brief hard cold facts as to why wikapedia is
>>> should not be
>>> a "citeable" source for research. Presenting to faculty today and
>>> there
>>> are
>>> some big advocates of it who will claim it is just as reliable as
>>> Worldbook.
>>>
>>> Kristina Fallon Tomaino
>>> Robert Morris School, LMS k-8
>>> South Bound Brook NJ
>>> librarychickie@gmail.com
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thomas T. Kaun
>> Teacher Librarian
>> Bessie Chin Library @ Redwood High School
>> 395 Doherty Drive, Larkspur, CA 94939
>> tomkaun@gmail.com | Library Web site: http://rhslibrary.org |
>> Professional
>> development blog: http://tomlmt2.blogspot.com/ | Library news blog:
>> http://libraryleaves.blogspot.com
>>
>> Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day,
>> something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one
>> else
>> would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always
>> part of
>> unanimity.
>> - Christopher Morley
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Please note: All LM_NET postings are protected by copyright law.
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>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Please note: All LM_NET postings are protected by copyright law.
> You can prevent most e-mail filters from deleting LM_NET postings
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> To change your LM_NET status, e-mail to: listserv@listserv.syr.edu
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>
On Feb 2, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Cathy Rettberg wrote:
> These are both interesting viewpoints. I am one of the people who
> tells students to use an encyclopedia (including wikipedia) if
> necessary to find keywords and ideas, and to then research more
> deeply and not cite encyclopedias. Wikipedia can also be a good
> source for authoritative sources, if the page is well footnoted. But
> then we tell the students not to include these sources in their
> bibliographies, as we only want to see their authoritative sources.
> Tom is right - that is ignoring a part of the research process. How
> then (and this is basically for Tom) would you deal with truly non-
> authoritative websites? What if a student goes to a random
> Geocities site and finds accurate information that is supported by
> other, more authoritative sites? Would you include the "bad"
> research sites along with the "good" ones because they were part of
> the process?
>
> For my part I think I will stick to teaching students to only
> include sites that we (the students, teacher and I) have deemed
> reliable. We do a unit on source authority in US History that plays
> into this idea though: students have to create a "good"
> bibliography, using authoritative sources, and a "bad" bibiography,
> using lesser sources. The bibs are on opposite sides of a page; the
> students then exchange papers, determine which side is the less
> authoritative bib, and find better sources for each others' topics.
> The assignment is called "Born to Be Bad." The kids enjoy the
> intellectual challenge - it went over very well this year.
>
> I know there is a need to continually revisit the Wikipedia issue,
> as our view of source authority will continue to change as
> information flows ever more freely. It's so interesting!!!
>
> Cathy
> -----------
> Cathy Rettberg
> Head Librarian, Menlo School
> Atherton, CA
> crettberg@menloschool.org
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 2, 2009, at 9:02 AM, Gustafson, Jean wrote:
>
>> I believe, when a teacher says you cannot cite World Book or
>> Wikipedia type sources, what they really are saying, is DO NOT even
>> go look at them.
>>
>> Jean
>>
>> R. Jean Gustafson
>> Teacher-Librarian
>> Selah Jr. High
>> Selah, WA 98942
>> jeangustafson@selah.k12.wa.us
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: School Library Media & Network Communications
>[mailto:LM_NET@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
>> ] On Behalf Of Thomas Kaun
>> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 8:55 AM
>> To: LM_NET@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Why NOT Wikapedia
>>
>> Hi, Kristina.
>> I'm not sure why a student or any researcher, using the information
>> they got
>> from Wikipedia would not cite it. This just drives me crazy. If the
>> teacher
>> or professor wants to restrict students use of Wikipedia or ensure
>> that
>> other resources are used to verify the information found there that
>> doesn't
>> absolve the researcher's obligation to cite the source no matter how
>> inaccurate, in error, or whatever, that source is. The issue is not
>> citation--it's use--and that has to be determined by the teacher.
>> Some
>> teachers also don't want kids to use general encyclopedias and they
>> say the
>> same thing, "Don't cite the World Book or Britannica." Once again
>> that
>> doesn't make sense to me. If you are using it as a source then you
>> should be
>> citing it.
>> I know this is long answer to a short question but it just pushes
>> my buttons
>> when we and other teachers don't seem to understand the purpose of
>> citation
>> and are giving their students the wrong message about what and why
>> to cite.
>> Tom Kaun
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 6:08 AM, Kris Fallon
>> <librarychickie@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Looking for some brief hard cold facts as to why wikapedia is
>>> should not be
>>> a "citeable" source for research. Presenting to faculty today and
>>> there
>>> are
>>> some big advocates of it who will claim it is just as reliable as
>>> Worldbook.
>>>
>>> Kristina Fallon Tomaino
>>> Robert Morris School, LMS k-8
>>> South Bound Brook NJ
>>> librarychickie@gmail.com
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Please note: All LM_NET postings are protected by copyright law.
>>> You can prevent most e-mail filters from deleting LM_NET postings
>>> by adding LM_NET@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU to your e-mail address book.
>>> To change your LM_NET status, e-mail to: listserv@listserv.syr.edu
>>> In the message write EITHER: 1) SIGNOFF LM_NET 2) SET LM_NET NOMAIL
>>> 3) SET LM_NET MAIL 4) SET LM_NET DIGEST * Allow for confirmation.
>>> * LM_NET Help & Information: http://www.eduref.org/lm_net/
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>>> * LM_NET Wiki: http://lmnet.wikispaces.com/
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thomas T. Kaun
>> Teacher Librarian
>> Bessie Chin Library @ Redwood High School
>> 395 Doherty Drive, Larkspur, CA 94939
>> tomkaun@gmail.com | Library Web site: http://rhslibrary.org |
>> Professional
>> development blog: http://tomlmt2.blogspot.com/ | Library news blog:
>> http://libraryleaves.blogspot.com
>>
>> Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day,
>> something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one
>> else
>> would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always
>> part of
>> unanimity.
>> - Christopher Morley
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Please note: All LM_NET postings are protected by copyright law.
>> You can prevent most e-mail filters from deleting LM_NET postings
>> by adding LM_NET@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU to your e-mail address book.
>> To change your LM_NET status, e-mail to: listserv@listserv.syr.edu
>> In the message write EITHER: 1) SIGNOFF LM_NET 2) SET LM_NET NOMAIL
>> 3) SET LM_NET MAIL 4) SET LM_NET DIGEST * Allow for confirmation.
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>> * LM_NET Wiki: http://lmnet.wikispaces.com/
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Please note: All LM_NET postings are protected by copyright law.
>> You can prevent most e-mail filters from deleting LM_NET postings
>> by adding LM_NET@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU to your e-mail address book.
>> To change your LM_NET status, e-mail to: listserv@listserv.syr.edu
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>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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